Ruminations on Russia

An interesting take on the reemergence of vlast (power) in Russia

NOVAYA GAZETA
No. 85, Thursday
November 13, 2003
Don�t go Visiting the President in a Sweater -- then there won�t be a Dictatorship Interview with an Anonymous Source
Translated by Luba Schwartzman

The following is an interview with an officer of the Federal Security Service who is involved in the investigation of the YUKOS Affair. Granted on the condition of anonymity, it is cited word for word, with no corrections. Despite the officer�s careful wording, we can still find answers to very important questions.

* Who can say �shush� in the YUKOS Affair?
* What fate awaits Chubais?
* Does the �national question� play a role in the Khodorkovsky Affair?
* Is there such a thing as a �good� oligarch?

Q: How will the story starring Khodorkovsky end? What does the government want? To jail him? To take away his property? Or just to make an example of him to make others obedient?
A: Yes. Khodorkovsky was asking for it. He annoyed everyone; he was a real jerk.

Q: What did he do that was annoying?
A: Did you see how he was dressed when he came to meet with the President? The �I don�t give a damn� attitude� He stuck his nose in all over the place, going way too far. The worst part was when he said that he would rather be a political prisoner than a political refugee.

Q: So how will he be pressured? Until he breaks?
A: We don�t make decisions about that. We only carry out orders. But we will keep going as long as they let us.

Q: And how long will they let you?
A: Until they stop us. Once they say �shush,� we�ll quietly step away. But for now, we�ll have some fun. Our boys are pretty angry, you know. Angry at him and angry at the unfairness of life.

Q: Who are the bosses who can let or stop you?
A: The bosses are different for everyone. But everything is decided at the very top.

Q: The very-very top?
A: Of course.

Q: Are there political motivations for this?
A: Well, we certainly don�t have any. What have we got to do with it? We just carry out orders. They said �go� and we did. If they say �stop,� we will.� You know how it is in Russia -- it�s enough to say �act in accordance with the law.� Then anyone can get in trouble -- you, me� For many years we weren�t allowed to follow the law. Now, with regard to YUKOS, they said: �ok, go ahead!� We cheered. (laughs) We know that we have to act carefully and precisely. The political environment could change and then we could get in trouble. So those who carry out orders cannot overdo it. The main thing is to follow the law to the letter, to conform to all of the procedural regulations. Well, we�ll make him [Khodorkovsky -editor] sweat as long as we can, and then we�ll let him go. Certainly we understand that, sooner or later, someone who has as much money as he does will buy his way out. But it will be a pity if they let him off so easy. After all, we�re really trying, really working hard�

Q: But, tell me, what are you really after?
A: Well, we�ll push him as far as we can� Of course it would be really great to kick him out of the country. After all, our boys used to do it back in Soviet times. �Out of sight, out of heart� you know! (laughs) �No person means no problem.� Although Stalinist methods don�t cut it now� and the jerk [Khodorkovsky -editor] said he doesn�t want to leave. Our boys got pretty mad about that. Look at him being brave! He really is going too far!

Q: So how far will you go? Are you going to kick all of the oligarchs out?
A: We take our cue from Zhirik [Zhirinovsky -editor]. He says it will happen soon. He told all the oligarchs recently: �You�re all going to jail soon!� So that�s what the oligarchs have coming. All of them have dirty hands. All of these �shares-for-loans auctions� are a questionable affair. I�m talking about the law here! Why didn�t they return the money for the stocks? They could have, you know�

Q: But it was the government that made the decision about the auction. Are you ready to open up cases against Chernomyrdin and Chubais?
A: That�s a very sensitive issue you�re bringing up. Many of our boys can�t wait to get their hands on Chubais. But there�s an obstacle there. You can�t touch the government. That�s why we�re keeping low and waiting. But the boys have been quietly gathering information all these years. We�ve got plenty of evidence. The problem lies elsewhere: the interests of the state are involved, the interests of the government. One needs to be very, very careful. Look who�s at the top now -- if you really think about it, theose people shouldn�t be at the top. We have information -- plenty of information, even way back from Yeltsin�s time� but let�s not talk about that� It�s better for you not to know� You�ll be able to sleep better.

Q: How about Aksenenko?
A: Oh, nothing�s going to happen to him. They�ll just let him know: sit and keep quiet. If you don�t -- you�ll be sorry.

Q: Do you like how things are going in Russia?
A: I was a little uneasy before. But then I understood -- things like that always happen when the rules of the game change. And the rules of the game are changing now. It�s just that we�ve adapted to them and you haven�t yet.

Q: Which rules are changing?
A: Well, you see -- back under Yeltsin, certain things came to be accepted as dogmas. The notion that private property is sacred, for example. That�s rubbish. Do you really believe that all of these liberal values are here to stay? Don�t get used to these illusions! All of the rules can still be reviewed -- and the will be reviewed. In the past, everything was predictable: If someone made a move against an oligarch, he would give some money to the media, and the journalists would rally around him. He would give some money and buy his way out. If he didn�t get out of trouble tight away, it only meant that he didn�t give enough money. Now, none of the oligarchs can predict all of the consequences. Everything has come into motion. The rules of the game are changing. Now they are afraid of us, because they don�t know what to expect.

Q: And now they cannot bribe you?
A: You know, for us, the main priority right now is to be on Putin�s team. That means more than a one-time pay-off. If you manage to stay on the team, you�ll get back everything and more. If, on the other hand, you take money now, you can get kicked out. Before was chaos. No one valued their positions, since they knew they could end up on the street tomorrow. That�s why everyone grabbed whatever they could get -- to get at least something out of the job. But now we value our jobs. Look at what happen to the cops. All of the Ministry of Internal Affairs guys got quite a fright� We don�t want to become �werewolves.� So we do everything according to the law! We keep our noses clean! But the main thing is not to stray too far from the �party and government line.� (laughs) We�re the servants of the state, you know!

Q: How do you tell apart the �good� oligarchs and the �bad� oligarchs?
A: Oh, it�s very simple. Those who have a national orientation are safe. But these oligarchs aren�t �home based� in Russia.

Q: Where then?
A: In the US, in Israel� They are a major threat to our nation. There is a danger that Russia will be turned into a source of natural resources, a danger that we will be subjugated to a different country. That�s why the oligarchs have to be pushed down or pressed out. Of course, only those who are internationalist in ideology. It�s obvious that Gus [Gusinsky -editor] worked for Israel, just like Bereza [Berezovsky -editor] did. We should only keep those who are thinking about the nation and not about their own wallets. Khodorkovsky is clearly oriented toward the United States. He shouldn�t be in Russia. This is a real fifth column we�re talking about. This is a very dangerous political wing. If it becomes stronger, Russia will lose its independence from the West. And if we don�t get rid of him now, Khodorkovsky will become invincible.

Q: So, are there any �good� oligarchs, who might be allowed to stay?
A: Sure. Mordashov, for example. He�s a Russian.

Q: Is nationality what counts?
A: Of course. All Jews are traitors. They all lean towards the West. This was always the case. Back at the �High� [Higher School of the Committee for State Security -editor] they taught us that all intelligence workers rely on Zionist lines, because the Jews have diasporas everywhere. You know, for them nationality is more important than citizenship. Zionists were always hostile towards Russia. And they had many ideas about how to use international capital against us. All of our achievements in intelligence work were based on Jews and their networks. Take the Rosenthal Affair, for example. We always worked along Jewish channels. So now we cannot allow in this Zionist capital�

Q: What about democracy?
A: Oh, democracy is a bluff. The only thing that counts is power. Remember how everyone was afraid of us when the USSR was strong? And now that we�re weak, everyone is trying to get at us. During the mess that the Yeltsin regime was, we created way too many of those� Well, the same thing that happened with Trotsky, basically.

Q: So what�s coming? Nationalization?
A: No, nationalization isn�t on the agenda. The main thing right now is redistribution in favor of nationally-oriented businessmen. Why the heck should Khodorkovsky have seven billion dollars? Who the heck is he?

Q: Perhaps he is smarter than other people and a better businessman?
A: How much brainpower does it take to pump oil? Just build some towers, and you�re set. All of the technology is purchased in the West. You don�t need to be smart for that.

Q: Do we need to get rid of LUKOIL as well?
A: No. LUKOIL protects out strategic interests on the borders, in disputed areas like Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan. This is �our� company. It�s nationally-geared. Alekperov never tried to stick his nose into politics.

Q: So politics is what counts?
A: Yes. You see, Khodorkovsky is driven by ambition. Just look how much money he gave to oppositionist parties! He must be quashed with no questions asked, before he becomes another Berezovsky.

Q: And what�s so dangerous about giving money to these parties -- Yabloko, Union of Right Forces?
A: Oh -- right now it may not seem dangerous. But they are just lying low and waiting for their hour. These are the same Zionists we were talking about. Under no circumstances should they be allowed to grow stronger. And Khodorkovsky? Let him run about and complain now. No Strasbourg Court can help him. After all -- they got their chance to live well, but quietly. But, no! That wasn�t enough! They wanted to get involved in politics! Well -- now they will have neither politics nor money.

Q: Is this also an example set for other oligarchs?
A: Of course. You see, Abramovich is the smartest of them. We�ve already made a deal with him. Once his gubernatorial term is up, he will leave quietly, without a scandal. He�s already sold everything here and bought everything there.

Q: So, who should leave? Just the Jews or others as well?
A: Whoever proves their loyalty can stay. We aren�t trying to ruin relations with large business. Hitler hadn�t revoked major holdings that helped him.

Q: So where are you taking the country? Towards totalitarianism?
A: Yes. But this is going to be a capitalist totalitarianism rather than a socialist totalitarianism. This is the kind of government we had after Catherine II. Nicholas I came to power and replaced the ruling class. Officials replaced the nobility. Officials should get property for their service to the state, instead of property getting handed down by birthright. Then we will have order in the country.